Hitler och Mannerheim

Diskussioner kring andra världskriget. Tillägnad vår saknade medlem varjag
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subskipper
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Hitler och Mannerheim

Inlägg av subskipper » 06 apr 2002 11:24

Inspelningen av Hitlers och Mannerheims samtal kom upp i en annan tråd under omröstningar, och även om jag inte lyckades hitta någon ljudlänk på nätet så fann jag iaf delar av vad som sades:

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Hitler: ...a very serious danger, perhaps the most serious one - it's whole extent we can only now judge. We did not ourselves understand - just how strong this state [the USSR] was armed.

Mannerheim: No, we hadn't thought of this.

Hitler: No, I too, no.

Mannerheim: During the Winter War - during the Winter War we had not even thought of this. Of course...

Hitler: (Interrupting) Yes.

Mannerheim: But so, how they - in reality - and now there is no doubt all they had - what they had in their stocks!

Hitler: Absolutely, This is - they had the most immense armaments that, uh, people could imagine. Well - if somebody had told me that a country - with...(Hitler is interrupted by the sound of a door opening and closing.) If somebody had told me a nation could start with 35,000 tanks, then I'd have said: "You are crazy!"

Mannerheim: Thirty-five?

Hitler: Thirty-five thousand tanks.

Another Voice In Background: Thirty-five thousand! Yes!

Hitler: We have destroyed - right now - more than 34,000 tanks. If someone had told me this, I'd have said: "You!" If you are one of my generals had stated that any nation has 35,000 tanks I'd have said: "You, my good sir, you see everything twice or ten times. You are crazy; you see ghosts." This I would have deemed possible. I told you earlier we found factories, one of them at Kramatorskaja, for example, Two years ago there were just a couple hundred [tanks]. We didn't know anything. Today, there is a tank plant, where - during the first shift a little more than 30,000, and 'round the clock a little more than 60,000, workers would have labored - a single tank plant! A gigantic factory! Masses of workers who certainly, lived like animals and...

Another Voice In Background: (Interrupting) In the Donets area?

Hitler: In the Donets area. (Background noises from the rattling of cups and plates over the exchange.)

Mannerheim: Well, if you keep in mind they had almost 20 years, almost 25 years of - freedom to arm themselves...

Hitler: (Interrupting quietly) It was unbelievable.

Mannerheim: And everything - everything spent on armament.

Hitler: Only on armament.

Mannerheim: Only on armament!

Hitler: (Sighs) Only - well, it is - as I told your president [Ryti] before - I had no idea of it. If I had an idea - then I would have been even more difficult for me, but I would have taken the decision [to invade] anyhow, because - there was no other possibility. It was - certain, already in the winter of '39/ '40, that the war had to begin. I had only this nightmare - but there is even more! Because a war on two fronts - would have been impossible - that would have broken us. Today, we see more clearly - than we saw at that time - it would have broken us. And my whole - I originally wanted to - already in the fall of '39 I wanted to conduct the campaign in the west - on the continuously bad weather we experienced hindered us.

Our whole armament - you know, was - is a pure good weather armament. It is very capable, very good, but it is unfortunately just a good-weather armament. We have seen this in the war. Our weapons naturally were made for the west, and we all thought, and this was true 'till that time, uh, it was the opinion from the earliest times: you cannot wage war in winter. And we too, have, the German tanks, they weren't tested, for example, to prepare them for winter war. Instead we conducted trials to prove it was impossible to wage war in winter. That is a different starting point [than the Soviet's]. In the fall of 1939 we always faced the question. I desperately wanted to attack, and I firmly believed we could finish France in six weeks.

However, we faced the question of whether we could move at all - it was raining continuously. And I know the French area myself very well and I too could not ignore the opinions, of many of my generals that, we - probably - would not have had the élan, that our tank arm would not have been, effective, that our air force could not been effective from our airfields because of the rain.

I know northern France myself. You know, I served in the Great War for four years. And - so the delay happened. If I had in '39 eliminated France, then world history would have changed. But I had to wait 'till 1940, and unfortunately it wasn't possible before May. Only on the 10th of May was the first nice day - and on the 10th of May I immediately attacked. I gave the order to attack on the 10th on the 8th. And - then we had to, conduct this huge transfer of our divisions from the west to the east.

First the occupation of - then we had the task in Norway - at the same time we faced - I can frankly say it today - a grave misfortune, namely the - weakness of, Italy. Because of - first, the situation in North Africa, then, second, because of the situation in Albania and Greece - a very big misfortune. We had to help. This meant for us, with one small stoke, first - the splitting of our air force, splitting our tank force, while at the same time we were preparing, the, tank arm in the east. We had to hand over - with one stroke, two divisions, two whole divisions and a third was then added - and we had to replace continuous, very severe, losses there. It was - bloody fighting in the desert.

This all naturally was inevitable, you see. I had a conversation with Molotov [Soviet Minister] at that time, and it was absolutely certain that Molotov departed with the decision to begin a war, and I dismissed the decision to begin a war, and I dismissed him with the decision to - impossible, to forestall him. There was - this was the only - because the demands that man brought up were clearly aimed to rule, Europe in the end. (Practically whispering here.) Then I have him - not publicly...(fades out).

Already in the fall of 1940 we continuously faced the question, uh: shall we, consider a break up [in relations with the USSR]? At that time, I advised the Finnish government, to - negotiate and, to gain time and, to act dilatory in this matter - because I always feared - that Russia suddenly would attack Romania in the late fall - and occupy the petroleum wells, and we would have not been ready in the late fall of 1940. If Russia indeed had taken Romanian petroleum wells, than Germany would have been lost. It would have required - just 60 Russian divisions to handle that matter.

In Romania we had of course - at that time - no major units. The Romanian government had turned to us only recently - and what we did have there was laughable. They only had to occupy the petroleum wells. Of course, with our weapons I could not start a, war in September or October. That was out of the question. Naturally, the transfer to the east wasn't that far advanced yet. Of course, the units first had to reconsolidate in the west. First the armaments had to be taken care of because we too had - yes, we also had losses in our campaign in the west. It would have been impossible to attack - before the spring of 19, 41. And if the Russians at that time - in the fall of 1940 - had occupied Romania - taken the petroleum wells, then we would have been, helpless in 1941.

Another Voice In Background: Without petroleum...

Hitler: (Interrupting) We had huge German production: however, the demands of the air force, our Panzer divisions - they are really huge. It is level of consumption that surpasses the imagination. And without the addition of four to five million tons of Romanian petroleum, we could not have fought the war - and would have had to let it be - and that was my big worry. Therefore I aspired to, bridge the period of negotiations 'till we would be strong enough to, counter those extortive demands [from Moscow] because - those demands were simply naked extortion's. They were extortion's. The Russians knew we were tied up in the west. They could really extort everything from us. Only when Molotov visited - then - I told him frankly that the demands, their numerous demands, weren't acceptable to us. With that the negotiations came to an abrupt end that same morning.

There were four topics. The one topic that, involved Finland was, the, freedom to protect themselves from the Finnish threat, he said. You do not want to tell me Finland threatens you! But he said: "In Finland it is - they who take action against the, friends, of the Soviet Union. They would [take action] against [our] society, against us - they would continuously, persecute us and, a great power cannot be threatened by a minor country."

I said: "Your, existence isn't threatened by Finland! That is, you don't mean to tell me..."

Mannerheim: (Interrupting) Laughable!

Hitler: "...that your existence is threatened by Finland?" Well [he said] there was a moral - threat being made against a great power, and what Finland was doing, that was a moral - a threat to their moral existence. Then I told him we would not accept a further war in the Baltic area as passive spectators. In reply he asked me how we viewed our position in, Romania. You know, we had given them a guarantee. [He wanted to know] if that guarantee was directed against Russia as well? And that time I told him: "I don't think it is directed at you, because I don't think you have the intention of attacking Romania. You have always stated that Bessarabia is yours, but that you have - never stated that you want to attack Romania!"

"Yes," he told me, but he wanted to know more precisely if this guarantee...(A door opens and the recording ends.)


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~Henric Edwards

Mad Hatter
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Inlägg av Mad Hatter » 06 apr 2002 16:03

Henric,

Det där var mycket intressant! Var hittade du denna information?

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subskipper
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Inlägg av subskipper » 06 apr 2002 17:14

Wargamer.com av alla ställen. :)



~Henric Edwards

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tobbe
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Inlägg av tobbe » 06 apr 2002 18:45

Väldigt intressant faktiskt. Jag hade ingen aning om att Mannerheim hade haft diskussioner med Hitler :oops: .

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subskipper
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Inlägg av subskipper » 06 apr 2002 19:49

Hitler uppvaktade Mannerheim på hans födelsedag i juni 1942. Inspelningen gjordes i Mammerheims järnvägsvagn där de två samtalade. Lite kuriosa är att Hitlers flyplan närapå kraschade in i en industriskorsten när det skulle landa.

Ska dessutom tillägga att det jag hävdade i den andra tråden, att finska underrättelsetjänsten skulle spelat in samtalet, var fel. Tydligen så var det en olyckshändelse att man spelade in detta. En ljudtekniker från den finska radion råkade lämna sin inspelningsutrustning på och på den vägen var det. :)



~Henric Edwards

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Inlägg av Gutekrigaren » 06 apr 2002 20:15

Vad hände med piloten...?

Enligt Mannerheimbiografin av Veijo Meri fick Hitler en Suomi maskinpistol av Finland (Mannerheim) i födelsedagspresent, vilket han skulle ha uppskattat mycket. Mannerheim fick väl en Mercedes vid detta Hitlers besök?

Angående dialogen: Mannerheim var ingen feg person direkt, avbryta Hitler gjorde väl knappast vem som helst 1942...

Mvh Petter

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Johan Elisson
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Inlägg av Johan Elisson » 06 apr 2002 21:43

Vilket språk talade dem? Tyska? För jag antar att Hitler inte kund finska. :)

/Johan

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Inlägg av Mad Hatter » 07 apr 2002 00:04

Johan Elisson,

Hitler kunde endast tala tyska, undantaget några få ord franska. Så tyvärr, nej han kunde inte tala finska :)

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J von B
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Inlägg av J von B » 07 apr 2002 00:13

Gutekrigaren skrev:Vad hände med piloten...?
Hitler ville bara bli flugen av Hans Baur och såvitt jag vet så flögs han bara av Baur. Det var Baur som satt bakom spakarna på flygningen till Finland och om jag inte minns fel så fick Baur Hitlers porträtt av Fredrik den Store i Führerbunkern nån av de sista dagarna...nåja Hitler förlorade aldrig förtroendet för sin pilot var vad jag skulle komma till.

"In June 1942 Hitler flew from Rastenburg to Micheli near Wiborg in Finland to visit Fieldmarshall Mannerheim; upon landing, a wheel started burning because of a faulty brake and the plane narrowly escaped catching fire."

- Hitler's Personal Security, Peter Hoffmann, sid 78.

MVH
/Johan

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Inlägg av Gutekrigaren » 07 apr 2002 00:21

Kanske mer ett ämne för en ny tråd, men vad flög Hitler i för plan??

Mvh Petter

PS. Tack för infon, J von B! DS.

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J von B
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Inlägg av J von B » 07 apr 2002 00:43

Gutekrigaren skrev:Kanske mer ett ämne för en ny tråd, men vad flög Hitler i för plan??
"Immelmann I" Rohrbach Ro VIII Roland användes under valkampanjer mars och juli 1932.

"Immelmann II" JU-52 från 1933.

"Immelmann III" FW 200 Condor från 1937. En förbättrad version kom 1942. I denna hade Hitler en öppning under sitt säte som han kunde öppna med ett handtag och hoppa fallskärm i "säkerhet".

Jag gissar att Hitler flög FW Condor till Mannerheim då jag har för mig att JU-52 inte hade uppfällbart landningställ.

MVH
/Johan

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subskipper
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Inlägg av subskipper » 07 apr 2002 00:47

Hitler flög mycket riktigt en Fw-200 vid besöket.




~Henric Edwards

Andreas Lärka
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Mannerheim & Hitler

Inlägg av Andreas Lärka » 07 apr 2002 08:55

Gutekrigaren skrev:Angående dialogen: Mannerheim var ingen feg person direkt, avbryta Hitler gjorde väl knappast vem som helst 1942...
Hitler var ju vegetarian och absolutist. Mannerheim käkade kött, drack vin till maten och tände sin cigarr efteråt. Någon av följets finska officerare lär ha ställt sig lite frågande till detta, men Mannerheim lär bara ha svarat att "Jag är general och Finlands Marskalk, herr Hitler är enbart korpral, jag gör som jag vill..."

Det att landningsstället på Condoren fattade eld var ju inte så farligt som det låter. Det vara bara bromsarna som överhettades efter den något häftiga inbromsningen. Tydligen visste piloten inte om hur kort landningsbanan var och blev därför tvungen att bromsa hårdare än vanligt.
Betydligt farligare var de fabriksskorstenar som fanns i närheten. De lär också ha kommit som en överraskning för piloten. Nu vet jag inte hur nära en kollision var i verkligheten, men tanken är ju intressant. Vad hade hänt om Hitler lämnat scenen på sommaren 1942?

Hitler fick som sagt en "Suomi" -maskinpistol av Mannerheim. Det lär han ha tyckt om, eftersom han gärna ville se sig själv som en "riktig" soldat.
Mannerheim fick tre stycken terrängbilar av Hitler.

Andreas Lärka
Borgnäs, Finland

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J von B
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Inlägg av J von B » 07 apr 2002 10:13

Andreas Lärka!

Jag har fått intrycket att en felaktig broms låste hjulet och på så vis uppkom branden. Du hävdar att Baur framkallade branden. Skulle vara intressant att få klarhet kring detta.

Vad för terrängbilar, Mercedes-Benz G4 kanske?

MVH
/Johan

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Bilarna...

Inlägg av Andreas Lärka » 07 apr 2002 11:15

...var av märket Steyr 1500 A.

Hitlers plan var en Focke-Wulf FW 200 C-3/U9 W.Nr. 0099 med nationalitetsbeteckningen KE + IX.

Nu kan det hända att jag gjort mig skyldig till ärkesynden "att antaga" istället för "att veta" före jag uttalar mig... Hittar nämligen inga referenser för mitt påstående om bromsarna... Hmmm...
Tar sådeles tillsvidare tillbaka mitt påstående och konstaterar bara att de brann då planet hade landat. Återkommer om jag hittar några referenser.

Andreas Lärka
Borgnäs, Finland