var kan läsa om detta på svenska...?
är mkt intresserad av fälttåg....
ang stora "arméns marsch" så är jag intresserad av det som rör logistiken - väder, vind, matförhållanden i armén, furage för dragdjuren, sjukdomar, marschhastighet etc....
"krig o fred" tolstoj är en bra bok men vill ha mer källor...
hare bäst
franska dödsmarschen i ryssland 1812....
Frågan är hur detta enorma manfall gick till?
Vad jag förstår så droppade en stor del av armén av när man gick in i ryssland o blev stationerade vid gränsen ngnstans...
Sista delen av återtåget i ryssland innebar kanske den största katastrofen...
I början av fälttåget härjade kraftig magsjuka som reducerade en hel del samt att väderförändringarna från ösregn till mkt hög sensommarhetta ställde till det oxå...Regnet gjorde vägarna dåliga o hettan gjorde visst sitt för att hålla sjukdomarna kvar i leden...
Vad jag förstår så droppade en stor del av armén av när man gick in i ryssland o blev stationerade vid gränsen ngnstans...
Sista delen av återtåget i ryssland innebar kanske den största katastrofen...
I början av fälttåget härjade kraftig magsjuka som reducerade en hel del samt att väderförändringarna från ösregn till mkt hög sensommarhetta ställde till det oxå...Regnet gjorde vägarna dåliga o hettan gjorde visst sitt för att hålla sjukdomarna kvar i leden...
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SolitaryMan
- Medlem
- Inlägg: 319
- Blev medlem: 13 juni 2003, 09:16
- Ort: Stockholm
Som kuriosa kan nämnas att diagrammet ovan har ansetts som kanske det bästa diagrammet genom tiderna. I "Statistikens bilder" (Wallgren & Wallgren m.fl.) skrivs:
/MartinDiagrammet ger en fantastisk summering av Napoleons fälttåg. Det är möjligt att Tolstoy gör samma sak mer konstnärligt i Krig och fred, men han behöver tusen sidor för detta.
Fransosen Charles Minard (1781-1870) var inte så dum. Bra citat från Wallgren X2 m.fl.SolitaryMan skrev:Som kuriosa kan nämnas att diagrammet ovan har ansetts som kanske det bästa diagrammet genom tiderna. I "Statistikens bilder" (Wallgren & Wallgren m.fl.) skrivs:
/MartinDiagrammet ger en fantastisk summering av Napoleons fälttåg. Det är möjligt att Tolstoy gör samma sak mer konstnärligt i Krig och fred, men han behöver tusen sidor för detta.
MVH
Hans
Krig o Fred kan verkligen rekommenderas...Jag skummade igen det "skönlitterära" o läste allt som hade med det verkliga skeendet att göra... Även fast tom Tolstoj är lite "kuzutovfärgad" så är det en mkt intressant läsning om hur händelserna rullar på o att inte en fältherre bestämmer historien utifrån sin militära genialitet. Faser o utveckling i krig skrivs ju inte sällan som en produkt av vinnarens förträfflighet i att bestämma ödet o förlorarens misstag.
Särskilt spännande är historier från kosacker o trupper som förföljde franska eftersläntrarna...Om det är sanna hörsägen vet jag ej.
Särskilt spännande är historier från kosacker o trupper som förföljde franska eftersläntrarna...Om det är sanna hörsägen vet jag ej.
Hmmm...Krig o fred handlar inte om Stora arméns undergång enbart men men...SolitaryMan skrev:Som kuriosa kan nämnas att diagrammet ovan har ansetts som kanske det bästa diagrammet genom tiderna. I "Statistikens bilder" (Wallgren & Wallgren m.fl.) skrivs:
/MartinDiagrammet ger en fantastisk summering av Napoleons fälttåg. Det är möjligt att Tolstoy gör samma sak mer konstnärligt i Krig och fred, men han behöver tusen sidor för detta.
ja
Just ovanstående bild har jag studerat tidigare med, och funderat på bra litteratur inom ämnet. Dock ej tolstoj.
Någon som vet?
Någon som vet?
det är lite obegripligt hur 600.000 eller 500.000 man (ngn som har exakta siffror?) kan bli 30.000 på slutet....när o varför tappades alla soldater?.
att man inte hade elitsoldaterna med o att vädret spelade fransmännen ur händerna är ju helt klart samt magsjuka i början av fältet men påverkade maginfluensan o vädret såå mkt?....vad hände när o varför?....verkar som att man vid denna tid inte var redo för så stora armeer rent logistiskt?...var armeen för stor för sin tid?....
mkt intressant fälttåg rent logistiskt....
att man inte hade elitsoldaterna med o att vädret spelade fransmännen ur händerna är ju helt klart samt magsjuka i början av fältet men påverkade maginfluensan o vädret såå mkt?....vad hände när o varför?....verkar som att man vid denna tid inte var redo för så stora armeer rent logistiskt?...var armeen för stor för sin tid?....
mkt intressant fälttåg rent logistiskt....
http://www.balticsww.com/napoleon_graves.htm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/archaeolog ... y_01.shtml
och...
Napoleonic grave helps to explain one of history's worst military defeats
By MICHAEL TARM
Associated Press Writer
VILNIUS, Lithuania (AP) _ Arunas Barkus pokes at a leg bone in a pile of skeletal remains, tagged No. 151 and sprawled on an autopsy table at Vilnius University. At the touch of his fingers, marrow crumbles into the dust of one of history's most catastrophic military adventures.
What's clear, says the anthropologist, is that the remains of 2,000 men unearthed in a mass grave in Vilnius, the Lithuanian capital, were in Napoleon's army that invaded Russia 190 years ago.
When bulldozers accidentally uncovered the remains at a housing development last year, many thought they were political dissidents executed by secret police during Soviet rule, which ended in 1991.
But as crowds gathered to stare at the tangle of ribs and skulls poking through the sand, and coins with Napoleon's image and buttons of his Grand Army were found, it quickly became clear these were remnants of the ill-fated French force.
Deputy French Ambassador Olivier Poupard said the find was the "largest and most significant" of its kind.
"We've been very moved by this discovery," Poupard said. "Suddenly, history was more vivid. You could see it with your eyes. ... It's a history so much a part of the collective French memory."
Emperor Napoleon, who then controlled much of Europe, attacked Russia in June 1812. His 500,000-strong Grand Army that marched into Lithuania bound for Moscow was one of the largest invasion forces ever assembled.
Six months later, what was left of it, some 40,000 men, stumbled back into Vilnius in retreat. Cold and desperate for food, some are said to have pillaged local medical schools to eat preserved human organs.
In temperatures dropping to minus 22 Fahrenheit, dead French soldiers littered the cobblestone streets within days. The number of corpses nearly equaled the city's population.
Reoccupying Russians spent three months cleaning up. They couldn't dig graves in the frozen ground so they tried burning bodies, but the smoke and stench were unbearable.
So they threw them into a defensive trench dug earlier by the French themselves _ the trench the bulldozers uncovered nearly two centuries later.
Barkus and a dozen other researchers spent months charting and tagging the skeletons _ then examining each individually to determine age, sex and possible cause of death.
The size of skeleton No. 151 indicates it belonged to a male, said Barkus; the unworn teeth suggest he was around 20. Several bones belonged to boys as young as 15, probably drummers used to signal commands to troops.
Many of the skeletons were found curled up and undamaged, suggesting they died of cold, not cannonballs, bullets or bayonet thrusts.
"What killed these men was cold, starvation and disease," Barkus said.
DNA tests are being done to test the theory that a lot of men tied of typhus.
The emperor blamed the weather for decimating his army. Some historians say that was an excuse for sloppy planning. But experts say the findings in Vilnius seem to back Napoleon's version.
The debacle is viewed as the beginning of Napoleon's downfall, which was sealed at Waterloo, Belgium, in 1815.
With the last remains removed, a road has been built over the site, but archeologists will soon begin searching again, saying at least 10,000 other skeletons could be nearby.
Since Napoleon's soldiers came from all over his empire, there was never a question of returning the remains to France, said Poupard, the deputy ambassador.
Most of the remains already have been moved to a hilltop cemetery chapel to await ceremonial burial in October, and a monument paid for by France will be unveiled later. The chapel's oak door opens to a grove, shaded by pines, that will be the soldiers' final resting place.
"This is an occasion, especially with Lithuania on the verge of entering the European Union and the NATO alliance, to show reconciliation between former enemies that are now partners," Poupard said.
2002-09-04
http://www.vilnius.lt/new/en/vadovybe.p ... 149&id=106
MVH
Hans
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/archaeolog ... y_01.shtml
och...
Napoleonic grave helps to explain one of history's worst military defeats
By MICHAEL TARM
Associated Press Writer
VILNIUS, Lithuania (AP) _ Arunas Barkus pokes at a leg bone in a pile of skeletal remains, tagged No. 151 and sprawled on an autopsy table at Vilnius University. At the touch of his fingers, marrow crumbles into the dust of one of history's most catastrophic military adventures.
What's clear, says the anthropologist, is that the remains of 2,000 men unearthed in a mass grave in Vilnius, the Lithuanian capital, were in Napoleon's army that invaded Russia 190 years ago.
When bulldozers accidentally uncovered the remains at a housing development last year, many thought they were political dissidents executed by secret police during Soviet rule, which ended in 1991.
But as crowds gathered to stare at the tangle of ribs and skulls poking through the sand, and coins with Napoleon's image and buttons of his Grand Army were found, it quickly became clear these were remnants of the ill-fated French force.
Deputy French Ambassador Olivier Poupard said the find was the "largest and most significant" of its kind.
"We've been very moved by this discovery," Poupard said. "Suddenly, history was more vivid. You could see it with your eyes. ... It's a history so much a part of the collective French memory."
Emperor Napoleon, who then controlled much of Europe, attacked Russia in June 1812. His 500,000-strong Grand Army that marched into Lithuania bound for Moscow was one of the largest invasion forces ever assembled.
Six months later, what was left of it, some 40,000 men, stumbled back into Vilnius in retreat. Cold and desperate for food, some are said to have pillaged local medical schools to eat preserved human organs.
In temperatures dropping to minus 22 Fahrenheit, dead French soldiers littered the cobblestone streets within days. The number of corpses nearly equaled the city's population.
Reoccupying Russians spent three months cleaning up. They couldn't dig graves in the frozen ground so they tried burning bodies, but the smoke and stench were unbearable.
So they threw them into a defensive trench dug earlier by the French themselves _ the trench the bulldozers uncovered nearly two centuries later.
Barkus and a dozen other researchers spent months charting and tagging the skeletons _ then examining each individually to determine age, sex and possible cause of death.
The size of skeleton No. 151 indicates it belonged to a male, said Barkus; the unworn teeth suggest he was around 20. Several bones belonged to boys as young as 15, probably drummers used to signal commands to troops.
Many of the skeletons were found curled up and undamaged, suggesting they died of cold, not cannonballs, bullets or bayonet thrusts.
"What killed these men was cold, starvation and disease," Barkus said.
DNA tests are being done to test the theory that a lot of men tied of typhus.
The emperor blamed the weather for decimating his army. Some historians say that was an excuse for sloppy planning. But experts say the findings in Vilnius seem to back Napoleon's version.
The debacle is viewed as the beginning of Napoleon's downfall, which was sealed at Waterloo, Belgium, in 1815.
With the last remains removed, a road has been built over the site, but archeologists will soon begin searching again, saying at least 10,000 other skeletons could be nearby.
Since Napoleon's soldiers came from all over his empire, there was never a question of returning the remains to France, said Poupard, the deputy ambassador.
Most of the remains already have been moved to a hilltop cemetery chapel to await ceremonial burial in October, and a monument paid for by France will be unveiled later. The chapel's oak door opens to a grove, shaded by pines, that will be the soldiers' final resting place.
"This is an occasion, especially with Lithuania on the verge of entering the European Union and the NATO alliance, to show reconciliation between former enemies that are now partners," Poupard said.
2002-09-04
http://www.vilnius.lt/new/en/vadovybe.p ... 149&id=106
MVH
Hans