http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... gland.html
En ny studie som motsäger en tidigare genstudie som hävdat att brittiska gener har ändrats väldigt lite sedan istiden:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... hgene.html
Anglo-Saxiska England hade ett apartheidliknande samhälle
Re: Anglo-Saxiska England hade ett apartheidliknande samhäll
Tycker att den senare studien verkar trovärdig. Mngår den att applicera på alla britter? Det vore intressant att se en jämförelse med skottar och walesare.jofredes skrev:http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... gland.html
En ny studie som motsäger en tidigare genstudie som hävdat att brittiska gener har ändrats väldigt lite sedan istiden:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... hgene.html
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Olof Trätälja
- Utsparkad
- Inlägg: 1456
- Blev medlem: 16 april 2006, 09:36
- Ort: Sverige
Re: Anglo-Saxiska England hade ett apartheidliknande samhäll
Nja, egentligen motsäger den inte tidigare genstudier som endast konstaterade att 80% av britternas gener kom från folk från norra och nordvästra europa, det vill säga att inte mer än max 20% av befolkningen härstammar från invandrare i samband med neolitiseringen. Redan från början stod det klart att detta inte sa något om senare folkvandringar. Eller egentligen gjorde det faktiskt det eftersom man fann en ganska stor andel av grupp I1a vilket torde kommit just med den germanska invandringen, vidare kunde man inse att eftersom dessa också bar R1b så måste också en hel del av R1b generna (vilket är den grupp som också storbrittaniens mesolitiska befolkning hade) i själva verket härhöra från senare invandring. Denna anmärkning är formulerad så här i artikeln från 2005:jofredes skrev:http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... gland.html
En ny studie som motsäger en tidigare genstudie som hävdat att brittiska gener har ändrats väldigt lite sedan istiden:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... hgene.html
"Ice Age hunter-gathers also colonized the rest of northwest Europe, spreading through what are now the Netherlands, Germany, and France."
(R1b är alltså den grupp som härhör från den nordvästeuropeiska mesolitiska befolkningen och I1a den nordeuropeiska. Germanerna som är mer sentida har tre karakteristiska grupper, I1a, R1b och R1a (från stäppen norr om svarta havet) dock lite olika i proportion mellan nord och väst germaner.)
Så denna nya slutsats var väntad och egentligen i linje med tidigare studie, även om den då aktuella bokens författare inte ville ta det till sig. Däremot tycker jag att det var mycket snack om apartheidsystem, det räcker som påpekades i artikeln med sociala skillnader för att effekten skall uppnås.
Bakgrund
Biologerna/genetikerna Mark Thomas och Michael Stumpf och arkeologen Heinrich Härke har skrivit en uppsats (Thomas, Mark G. m.fl, Evidence for an apartheid-like social structure in early Anglo-Saxon England, Proceedings of the Royal Society, 2006) i syfte att
... reconcile the discrepancy between, on the one hand, archaeological and historical ideas about the scale of the Anglo-Saxon immigration ..., and on the other, estimates of the genetic contribution of the Anglo-Saxon immigrants to the modern English gene pool ... (a.a)
De beräkningar författarna refererar till har utförts inom ramen för två mycket kritiserade undersökningar/studier (Weale, Michael E. m.fl, Y Chromosome Evidence for Anglo-Saxon Mass Migration, Molecular Biology and Evolution, 2002; Capelli, Cristian m.fl, A Y Chromosome Census of the British Isles, Current Biology, 2003). Mark Thomas deltog i bägge studierna, Michael Stumpf i den andra.
Enligt den första studien (Weale m.fl) härstammar 50 - 100 % av männen i centrala England på fädernet från anglosaxiska invandrare.
Enligt den andra (Capelli m.fl) har 24.4 - 72.5 % (i genomsnitt 54.1 %) av männen på de brittiska öarna anglosaxiska/danska förfäder.
Forskarna bakom studierna menar att detta kan förklaras med en massinvandring under tidig medeltid, en förklaring som andra forskare ställer sig mycket tvivlande till.
Thomas, Stumpf & Härke medger att
Explaining such a high proportion of Continental genetic input with immigration alone would require migration on a massive scale (approx. 500 000+), well above documented population movements of the early middle ages ... An alternative explanation would be provided by an apartheid-like situation ... in which elevated social and economic status grant higher reproductive success to the immigrants when compared to the native population and a degree of postmigration reproductive isolation is maintained among ethnic groups for several generations. (a.a)
Men den "alternativa" förklaringen, "an apartheid-like social structure", har inte övertygat kritikerna. Se t.ex nedan under rubriken Stephen Oppenheimer om "Anglo-Saxon ethnic cleansing?"!
Problemet är att Thomas, Stumpf & Härke inte bemöter den allvarliga kritik som riktats mot undersökningarna/studierna för stora brister vad det gäller urvalsmetoder, val av haplogrupper för undersökning, data, analysmetoder m.m.
Nya böcker av genetikerna Stephen Oppenheimer och Bryan Sykes
I september utkom två böcker som är av direkt intresse i detta sammanhang.
Oppenheimer, Stephen. The Origins of the British: A Genetic Detective Story. Constable and Robinson, 2006.
Sykes, Bryan. The Blood of Isles. Transworld Publishers, 2006.
Såväl Oppenheimer som Sykes har i sin forskning kommit till helt andra resultat än de ovannämnda forskarna! Enligt Oppenheimer är det "only 5 per cent of modern English male lines", som är av anglosaxiskt ursprung, "rising to 15 per cent in parts of Norfolk where the Angles first settled." Enligt Sykes utgör "the overlay of Vikings, Saxons and so on ... 20 per cent at most" på de Brittiska Öarna. "That's even in those parts of England that are nearest to the Continent. The only exception is Orkney and Shetland, where roughly 40 % are of Viking ancestry." (a.a)
Det finns all anledning att återkomma till dessa böcker vid ett senare tillfälle.
Stephen Oppenheimer om "Anglo-Saxon ethnic cleansing?"
Stephen Oppenheimer skriver i artikeln Myths of British ancestry (Prospect Magazine, Issue 127, October 2006) under rubriken Anglo-Saxon ethnic cleansing?,
The other myth I was taught at school, [den ena rör kelterna] one which persists to this day, is that the English are almost all descended from 5th-century invaders, the Angles, Saxons and Jutes, from the Danish peninsula, who wiped out the indigenous Celtic population of England.
The story originates with the clerical historians of the early dark ages. Gildas (6th century AD) and Bede (7th century) tell of Saxons and Angles invading over the 5th and 6th centuries. Gildas, in particular, sprinkles his tale with "rivers of blood" descriptions of Saxon massacres. And then there is the well-documented history of Anglian and Saxon kingdoms covering England for 500 years before the Norman invasion.
But who were those Ancient Britons left in England to be slaughtered when the legions left? The idea that the Celts were eradicated - culturally, linguistically and genetically - by invading Angles and Saxons derives from the idea of a previously uniformly Celtic English landscape. But the presence in Roman England of some Celtic personal and place-names doesn't mean that all ancient Britons were Celts or Celtic-speaking.
The genocidal view was generated, like the Celtic myth, by historians and archaeologists over the last 200 years. With the swing in academic fashion against "migrationism" (seeing the spread of cultural influence as dependent on significant migrations) over the past couple of decades, archaeologists are now downplaying this story, although it remains a strong underlying perspective in history books.
Some geneticists still cling to the genocide story. Research by several genetics teams associated with University College London has concentrated in recent years on proving the wipeout view on the basis of similarities of male Y chromosome gene group frequency between Frisia/north Germany and England. One of the London groups attracted press attention in July by claiming that the close similarities were the result of genocide followed by a social-sexual apartheid that enhanced Anglo-Saxon reproductive success over Celtic.
The problem is that the English resemble in this way all the other countries of northwest Europe as well as the Frisians and Germans. Using the same method (principal components analysis, see note below), I have found greater similarities of this kind between the southern English and Belgians than the supposedly Anglo-Saxon homelands at the base of the Danish peninsula. These different regions could not all have been waiting their turn to commit genocide on the former Celtic population of England. The most likely reason for the genetic similarities between these neighbouring countries and England is that they all had similar prehistoric settlement histories.
When I looked at exact gene type matches between the British Isles and the continent, there were indeed specific matches between the continental Anglo-Saxon homelands and England, but these amounted to only 5 per cent of modern English male lines, rising to 15 per cent in parts of Norfolk where the Angles first settled. There were no such matches with Frisia, which tends to confirm a specific Anglo-Saxon event since Frisia is closer to England, so would be expected to have more matches.
When I examined dates of intrusive male gene lines to look for those coming in from northwest Europe during the past 3,000 years, there was a similarly low rate of immigration, by far the majority arriving in the Neolithic period. The English maternal genetic record (mtDNA)is consistent with this and contradicts the Anglo-Saxon wipeout story. English females almost completely lack the characteristic Saxon mtDNA marker type still found in the homeland of the Angles and Saxons. The conclusion is that there was an Anglo-Saxon invasion, but of a minority elite type, with no evidence of subsequent "sexual apartheid."
The orthodox view is that the entire population of the British Isles, including England, was Celtic-speaking when Caesar invaded. But if that were the case, a modest Anglo-Saxon invasion is unlikely to have swept away all traces of Celtic language from the pre-existing population of England. Yet there are only half a dozen Celtic words in English, the rest being mainly Germanic, Norman or medieval Latin. One explanation is that England was not mainly Celtic-speaking before the Anglo-Saxons. Consider, for example, the near-total absence of Celtic inscriptions in England (outside Cornwall), although they are abundant in Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Brittany.
I en not om How does genetic tracking work? skriver Oppenheimer,
The greatest advances in genetic tracing and measuring migrations over the past two decades have used samples from living populations to reconstruct the past. Such research goes back to the discovery of blood groups, but our Y-chromosomes and mitochondrial DNA are the most fruitful markers to study since they do not get mixed up at each generation. Study of mitochondrial DNA in the British goes back over a decade, and from 2000 to 2003 London-based researchers established a database of the geographically informative Y-chromosomes by systematic sampling throughout the British Isles. Most of these samples were collected from people living in small, long-established towns, whose grandparents had also lived there.
Two alternative methods of analysis are used. In the British Y-chromosome studies, the traditional approach of principal components analysis was used to compare similarities between whole sample populations. This method reduces complexity of genetic analysis by averaging the variation in frequencies of numerous genetic markers into a smaller number of parcels - the principal components - of decreasing statistical importance. The newer approach that I use, the phylogeographic method, follows individual genes rather than whole populations. The geographical distribution of individual gene lines is analysed with respect to their position on a gene tree, to reconstruct their origins, dates and routes of movement.
mvh/hitpil
Biologerna/genetikerna Mark Thomas och Michael Stumpf och arkeologen Heinrich Härke har skrivit en uppsats (Thomas, Mark G. m.fl, Evidence for an apartheid-like social structure in early Anglo-Saxon England, Proceedings of the Royal Society, 2006) i syfte att
... reconcile the discrepancy between, on the one hand, archaeological and historical ideas about the scale of the Anglo-Saxon immigration ..., and on the other, estimates of the genetic contribution of the Anglo-Saxon immigrants to the modern English gene pool ... (a.a)
De beräkningar författarna refererar till har utförts inom ramen för två mycket kritiserade undersökningar/studier (Weale, Michael E. m.fl, Y Chromosome Evidence for Anglo-Saxon Mass Migration, Molecular Biology and Evolution, 2002; Capelli, Cristian m.fl, A Y Chromosome Census of the British Isles, Current Biology, 2003). Mark Thomas deltog i bägge studierna, Michael Stumpf i den andra.
Enligt den första studien (Weale m.fl) härstammar 50 - 100 % av männen i centrala England på fädernet från anglosaxiska invandrare.
Enligt den andra (Capelli m.fl) har 24.4 - 72.5 % (i genomsnitt 54.1 %) av männen på de brittiska öarna anglosaxiska/danska förfäder.
Forskarna bakom studierna menar att detta kan förklaras med en massinvandring under tidig medeltid, en förklaring som andra forskare ställer sig mycket tvivlande till.
Thomas, Stumpf & Härke medger att
Explaining such a high proportion of Continental genetic input with immigration alone would require migration on a massive scale (approx. 500 000+), well above documented population movements of the early middle ages ... An alternative explanation would be provided by an apartheid-like situation ... in which elevated social and economic status grant higher reproductive success to the immigrants when compared to the native population and a degree of postmigration reproductive isolation is maintained among ethnic groups for several generations. (a.a)
Men den "alternativa" förklaringen, "an apartheid-like social structure", har inte övertygat kritikerna. Se t.ex nedan under rubriken Stephen Oppenheimer om "Anglo-Saxon ethnic cleansing?"!
Problemet är att Thomas, Stumpf & Härke inte bemöter den allvarliga kritik som riktats mot undersökningarna/studierna för stora brister vad det gäller urvalsmetoder, val av haplogrupper för undersökning, data, analysmetoder m.m.
Nya böcker av genetikerna Stephen Oppenheimer och Bryan Sykes
I september utkom två böcker som är av direkt intresse i detta sammanhang.
Oppenheimer, Stephen. The Origins of the British: A Genetic Detective Story. Constable and Robinson, 2006.
Sykes, Bryan. The Blood of Isles. Transworld Publishers, 2006.
Såväl Oppenheimer som Sykes har i sin forskning kommit till helt andra resultat än de ovannämnda forskarna! Enligt Oppenheimer är det "only 5 per cent of modern English male lines", som är av anglosaxiskt ursprung, "rising to 15 per cent in parts of Norfolk where the Angles first settled." Enligt Sykes utgör "the overlay of Vikings, Saxons and so on ... 20 per cent at most" på de Brittiska Öarna. "That's even in those parts of England that are nearest to the Continent. The only exception is Orkney and Shetland, where roughly 40 % are of Viking ancestry." (a.a)
Det finns all anledning att återkomma till dessa böcker vid ett senare tillfälle.
Stephen Oppenheimer om "Anglo-Saxon ethnic cleansing?"
Stephen Oppenheimer skriver i artikeln Myths of British ancestry (Prospect Magazine, Issue 127, October 2006) under rubriken Anglo-Saxon ethnic cleansing?,
The other myth I was taught at school, [den ena rör kelterna] one which persists to this day, is that the English are almost all descended from 5th-century invaders, the Angles, Saxons and Jutes, from the Danish peninsula, who wiped out the indigenous Celtic population of England.
The story originates with the clerical historians of the early dark ages. Gildas (6th century AD) and Bede (7th century) tell of Saxons and Angles invading over the 5th and 6th centuries. Gildas, in particular, sprinkles his tale with "rivers of blood" descriptions of Saxon massacres. And then there is the well-documented history of Anglian and Saxon kingdoms covering England for 500 years before the Norman invasion.
But who were those Ancient Britons left in England to be slaughtered when the legions left? The idea that the Celts were eradicated - culturally, linguistically and genetically - by invading Angles and Saxons derives from the idea of a previously uniformly Celtic English landscape. But the presence in Roman England of some Celtic personal and place-names doesn't mean that all ancient Britons were Celts or Celtic-speaking.
The genocidal view was generated, like the Celtic myth, by historians and archaeologists over the last 200 years. With the swing in academic fashion against "migrationism" (seeing the spread of cultural influence as dependent on significant migrations) over the past couple of decades, archaeologists are now downplaying this story, although it remains a strong underlying perspective in history books.
Some geneticists still cling to the genocide story. Research by several genetics teams associated with University College London has concentrated in recent years on proving the wipeout view on the basis of similarities of male Y chromosome gene group frequency between Frisia/north Germany and England. One of the London groups attracted press attention in July by claiming that the close similarities were the result of genocide followed by a social-sexual apartheid that enhanced Anglo-Saxon reproductive success over Celtic.
The problem is that the English resemble in this way all the other countries of northwest Europe as well as the Frisians and Germans. Using the same method (principal components analysis, see note below), I have found greater similarities of this kind between the southern English and Belgians than the supposedly Anglo-Saxon homelands at the base of the Danish peninsula. These different regions could not all have been waiting their turn to commit genocide on the former Celtic population of England. The most likely reason for the genetic similarities between these neighbouring countries and England is that they all had similar prehistoric settlement histories.
When I looked at exact gene type matches between the British Isles and the continent, there were indeed specific matches between the continental Anglo-Saxon homelands and England, but these amounted to only 5 per cent of modern English male lines, rising to 15 per cent in parts of Norfolk where the Angles first settled. There were no such matches with Frisia, which tends to confirm a specific Anglo-Saxon event since Frisia is closer to England, so would be expected to have more matches.
When I examined dates of intrusive male gene lines to look for those coming in from northwest Europe during the past 3,000 years, there was a similarly low rate of immigration, by far the majority arriving in the Neolithic period. The English maternal genetic record (mtDNA)is consistent with this and contradicts the Anglo-Saxon wipeout story. English females almost completely lack the characteristic Saxon mtDNA marker type still found in the homeland of the Angles and Saxons. The conclusion is that there was an Anglo-Saxon invasion, but of a minority elite type, with no evidence of subsequent "sexual apartheid."
The orthodox view is that the entire population of the British Isles, including England, was Celtic-speaking when Caesar invaded. But if that were the case, a modest Anglo-Saxon invasion is unlikely to have swept away all traces of Celtic language from the pre-existing population of England. Yet there are only half a dozen Celtic words in English, the rest being mainly Germanic, Norman or medieval Latin. One explanation is that England was not mainly Celtic-speaking before the Anglo-Saxons. Consider, for example, the near-total absence of Celtic inscriptions in England (outside Cornwall), although they are abundant in Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Brittany.
I en not om How does genetic tracking work? skriver Oppenheimer,
The greatest advances in genetic tracing and measuring migrations over the past two decades have used samples from living populations to reconstruct the past. Such research goes back to the discovery of blood groups, but our Y-chromosomes and mitochondrial DNA are the most fruitful markers to study since they do not get mixed up at each generation. Study of mitochondrial DNA in the British goes back over a decade, and from 2000 to 2003 London-based researchers established a database of the geographically informative Y-chromosomes by systematic sampling throughout the British Isles. Most of these samples were collected from people living in small, long-established towns, whose grandparents had also lived there.
Two alternative methods of analysis are used. In the British Y-chromosome studies, the traditional approach of principal components analysis was used to compare similarities between whole sample populations. This method reduces complexity of genetic analysis by averaging the variation in frequencies of numerous genetic markers into a smaller number of parcels - the principal components - of decreasing statistical importance. The newer approach that I use, the phylogeographic method, follows individual genes rather than whole populations. The geographical distribution of individual gene lines is analysed with respect to their position on a gene tree, to reconstruct their origins, dates and routes of movement.
mvh/hitpil