Månlandningar: ett stort framsteg eller en stor bluff?

[Markus Holst]

Jo, men samtidigt, det enda vi får ta del av är det som NASA cirkulerar runt på webben i form av sina Apollo- och LRO-bilder. Och så länge som de tjyvhåller på originalbilderna så har vi ingen vetenskapligt hållbar bevisning.

Just det! Det är detta jag har använt några timmar till att hävda här och som sagt åtskilliga gånger av andra debattörer här. Bilderna kan inte användas som bevis på det viset som ni försöker!

[mythcracker]

Nej, förresten, det var 2002 som man hittade Armstrongs förlorade film från 1969 -- i ett garage i Australien. Mmm.

/MC

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02065.html

The Saga Of the Lost Space Tapes

By Marc Kaufman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, January 31, 2007

As Neil Armstrong prepared to take his "one small step" onto the moon in July 1969, a specially hardened video camera tucked into the lander's door clicked on to capture that first human contact with the lunar surface. The ghostly images of the astronaut's boot touching the soil record what may be the most iconic moment in NASA history, and a major milestone for mankind.

Millions of television viewers around the world saw those fuzzy, moving images and were amazed, even mesmerized. What they didn't know was that the Apollo 11 camera had actually sent back video far crisper and more dramatic -- spectacular images that, remarkably, only a handful of people have ever seen.

NASA engineers who did view them knew what the public was missing, but the relatively poor picture quality of the broadcast images never became an issue because the landing was such a triumph. The original, high-quality lunar tapes were soon stored and forgotten.

Only in recent years was the agency reminded of what it once had -- clean and crisp first-man-on-the-moon video images that could be especially valuable now that NASA is planning a return trip.

About 36 years after the tapes went into storage, NASA was suddenly eager to have them. There was just one problem: The tapes were nowhere to be found.

What started as an informal search became an official hunt through archives, record centers and storage rooms throughout NASA facilities. Many months later, disappointed officials now report that the trail they followed has gone cold. Although the search continues, they acknowledge that the videos may be lost forever.

"When we sent our camera up on the mission, everything about it was a first and a big unknown," said Richard Nafzger, an engineer with NASA who was involved in the original transmission of the Apollo 11 images to Earth and is now part of the search to find them. "Would the camera work? Would we get TV of that first step? We just didn't know what to expect.

"In the same way, we're doing a kind of massive tape and document search that's never been done before," Nafzger said in a recent interview. "We might discover the tapes tomorrow, or we might reach a point where we have to say we can't go any further. Right now, I would have to tell you their fate is pretty much a mystery."

Stanley Lebar, who had been in charge of developing the lunar camera, is also involved in the search. He can recite all the understandable reasons why he and his colleagues did not give the tapes the attention they deserved back in 1969 -- they were cumbersome, a highly specialized format that appeared to have limited value in the pre-digital age -- but he nonetheless is kicking himself now for not getting a copy for safekeeping.

"We all understood the importance of this event to history, to posterity, and so we all should have made sure those tapes were safe and secure," said Lebar, 81. "I ask myself today, 'Why the heck didn't you think that way back then?' The answer is that I just assumed that NASA was going to do it. But, unfortunately, that was a bad assumption."

The tale of the missing Apollo 11 tapes is made all the more awkward because televised images of subsequent Apollo missions were greatly improved. It was only for Apollo 11 that an unusually configured video feed was used. It was transmitted from the moon to ground sites in Australia and the Mojave Desert in California, where technicians reformatted the video for broadcast and transmitted long-distance over analog lines to Houston. A lot of video quality was lost during that process, turning clear, bright images into gray blobs and oddly moving shapes -- what Lebar now calls a "bastardized" version of the actual footage.

The original video from the moon was in an unconventional "slow-scan" format, made necessary because almost all of the broadcast spectrum was needed to send flight data to Earth. The format scanned only 30 percent of the normal frames per second, and it was done at a much lower than normal radio frequency.

The images would probably have remained forgotten and of little consequence to Lebar, Nafzger and NASA but for the initiative of a retired California ground station engineer and several Australian technicians who meet regularly for reunions.

In 2002, one of the men who had worked at Australia's Honeysuckle Creek ground station in 1969 -- and who had seen the high-quality Apollo 11 video originals back then -- found a 14-inch reel of tape in his garage that seemed to be from that period. He brought it to a Honeysuckle Creek reunion and passed it around.

At the next year's reunion, several more Honeysuckle veterans brought in mementos from the Apollo era, and this time they included actual moonwalk photos they had taken as the video played on their special monitors. The photos were of the original images -- not the ones reformatted for television -- and they were clearly much better than what everyone else had seen. An American engineer had similar pictures taken at the Mojave site.

The Australians were eager to learn whether the tape was of the actual Apollo 11 moonwalk, but they had no way to play the ungainly reels. Convinced that the tapes could have historical and educational value, they tracked down Nafzger, 66 -- one of the few Apollo 11-era people still working at the Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, where most Apollo data had been processed.

The good luck continued when Nafzger found that the soon-to-be-mothballed Data Evaluation Lab at Goddard still had one of the few seven-foot-tall analog machines that could play the Apollo video. The Australians sent him the tapes and he put them into the recorder with great anticipation. But what came out was just chatter and computer data from an earlier Apollo mission.

It was disappointing, but the seed had been planted: Not only was NASA reminded of the original moonwalk tapes, but the agency had a machine that could play them. It also had two men -- Nafzger and Lebar -- who still lived relatively close to Goddard and were willing to spend hours of their own time looking for the three hours of video.

They spent weeks searching in the vast National Records Center in Suitland, where the tapes once were housed. They came up empty until finding documentation that some 26,000 boxes of Apollo tapes were requested by Goddard officials between the early 1970s and the early 1980s. Considering that the 45 videotapes from Apollo 11 would have been stored in just nine of those boxes, the odds against finding them were clearly daunting. Nonetheless, Nafzger and Lebar were optimistic.

Back at Goddard, however, they found no trace of the missing tapes, nor of anyone who knew much about them. Clearly someone at Goddard had forwarded the Apollo tapes to other storage, dispersed them to other NASA centers or had them destroyed, but Nafzger and Lebar have had little luck identifying who that might be. The fact that all this happened about 30 years ago made the task more difficult, since some of the most likely decision makers are deceased.

The missing tapes are now something of an embarrassment to NASA, which last August put Goddard's deputy director, Dolly Perkins, in charge of the search. She is overseeing the hunt for the tapes and, perhaps more important right now, for memos and directives that might yield clues to their fate.

"As far as we know, all the tapes were handled properly from a mission perspective," she said. "Typically, when we record at a ground site, we don't preserve data tapes. The scientific investigators will get what they need and then erase. But here there is some indication that we didn't destroy the tapes but stored them for some period of time."

But as Perkins well understands, there is a difference between the "mission perspective" and the historical and social value of these particular tapes. The missing videos could help excite a new generation about exploring space, and they offer significant commercial possibilities as well.

"Maybe somebody didn't have the wisdom to realize that the original tapes might be valuable sometime in the future," she said. "Certainly, we can look back now and wonder why we didn't have better foresight about this."

[MD650]

Bilderna kan inte användas som bevis på det viset som ni försöker!

Man skulle kunna använda dom som bevis ifall vi visste att de var omanipulerade.
Nu vet vi inte det så då är bevisvärdet ringa.

[Markus Holst]

Marcus, av alla dåliga debattörer tar du priset. Du har ingenting på fötterna, du vet det också och går avsiktligt in för att provocera. Jag har just förlorat all respekt för dig som debattör och kommer inte svara på dina inlägg hädanefter.

Det enda jag velat bevisa är att ni är dåliga debattörer. Jag har inte försökt att bevisa eller hävda något alls vad gäller månlandningarna. När det gäller er debatt-teknik. vilket är vad jag diskuterar, har jag mycket på fötterna. Mitt senaste bevis är ditt ovanstående inlägg där du återigen resonerar om att jag vill hävda en åsikt om månlandningarna trots at jag otaliga gånger hävdat motsatsen.

Din respekt klarar jag mig utan men jag vill återigen föra till protokollet att du inte svarat på min fråga. Ingen av de två frågor jag ställt till dig idag har fått svar, för den delen.

[mythcracker]

Jo, men samtidigt, det enda vi får ta del av är det som NASA cirkulerar runt på webben i form av sina Apollo- och LRO-bilder. Och så länge som de tjyvhåller på originalbilderna så har vi ingen vetenskapligt hållbar bevisning.

Just det! Det är detta jag har använt några timmar till att hävda här och som sagt åtskilliga gånger av andra debattörer här. Bilderna kan inte användas som bevis på det viset som ni försöker!

Men det är precis det som blir kontentan av det hela om man tänker som du, att NASA:s bilder på nätet är OANVÄNDBARA som bevis, och i.o.m. att vi saknar andra bilder, så finns det inga bevis på att de flög till månen. Ganska enkelt, eller hur? Det var du som ville ha det så.

/MC

[Markus Holst]

Jo, men samtidigt, det enda vi får ta del av är det som NASA cirkulerar runt på webben i form av sina Apollo- och LRO-bilder. Och så länge som de tjyvhåller på originalbilderna så har vi ingen vetenskapligt hållbar bevisning.

Just det! Det är detta jag har använt några timmar till att hävda här och som sagt åtskilliga gånger av andra debattörer här. Bilderna kan inte användas som bevis på det viset som ni försöker!

Men det är precis det som blir kontentan av det hela om man tänker som du, att NASA:s bilder på nätet är OANVÄNDBARA som bevis, och i.o.m. att vi saknar andra bilder, så finns det inga bevis på att de flög till månen. Ganska enkelt, eller hur? Det var du som ville ha det så.

/MC

Det finns inte bevis för att bilderna är manipulerade med den avsikt som ni hävdar, heller.

Så vad har ni att komma med? Tvivla gärna, där har du in fulla respekt, men att sida upp och sida ner spamma med nya bilder som alla går att hitta rimliga förklaringar till motsatsen av vad ni hävdar, ger dig inget stöd i ditt tvivlande. Trots atd etta är ett historieforum och inte här så många pålästa i ämnet, lyckas ni alltså inte "hålla stånd". Att diskutera ned pålästa människor, till exempel på VoF, är du inte intresserad av.

Så vad är det du vill hävda, genom att spamma ett histroieforum?

[mythcracker]

Marcus, av alla dåliga debattörer tar du priset. Du har ingenting på fötterna, du vet det också och går avsiktligt in för att provocera. Jag har just förlorat all respekt för dig som debattör och kommer inte svara på dina inlägg hädanefter.

det end ajag velat bevisa är att ni är dåliga debattörer. Jag har inet försökt att bevisa eller hävda något alls vad gäller månlandnignarna. När det gäller er debatt-teknik. vilket är vad jag diskuterar, har jag mycket på fötterna. Mitt senaste bevis är ditt ovanstående inlägg.

Din respekt klarar jag mig utan men jag vill återigen föra till protokollet att du inte svarat på min fråga. Ingen av de två frågor jag ställt till dig idag har fått svar, för den delen.

Om du är här för att diskutera andras debatteknik, så är du ute i fel tråd. Alla har sina sätt att diskutera.

Hur var det med bilden med TVÅ SOLAR nu igen, där Schmitts kamrat står i motsol men får sin skugga att falla mot flaggan och Schmitt? Men det är klart, säkert har några pixlar flyttat sig när någon scannade in bilden och publicerade den på NASA:s officiella sajt. Sicken otur!

/MC

[Nord]

Jo, men samtidigt, det enda vi får ta del av är det som NASA cirkulerar runt på webben i form av sina Apollo- och LRO-bilder. Och så länge som de tjyvhåller på originalbilderna så har vi ingen vetenskapligt hållbar bevisning.

Just det! Det är detta jag har använt några timmar till att hävda här och som sagt åtskilliga gånger av andra debattörer här. Bilderna kan inte användas som bevis på det viset som ni försöker!

Men det är precis det som blir kontentan av det hela om man tänker som du, att NASA:s bilder på nätet är OANVÄNDBARA som bevis, och i.o.m. att vi saknar andra bilder, så finns det inga bevis på att de flög till månen. Ganska enkelt, eller hur? Det var du som ville ha det så.

/MC

Precis, alltså finns det inga bevis som bevisar att de flög till månen, och det är dit jag önskat komma hela tiden. Alla verkar vara överens om det, och det blir ett bra avslut för mig i den här tråden.

[Markus Holst]

Marcus, av alla dåliga debattörer tar du priset. Du har ingenting på fötterna, du vet det också och går avsiktligt in för att provocera. Jag har just förlorat all respekt för dig som debattör och kommer inte svara på dina inlägg hädanefter.

det end ajag velat bevisa är att ni är dåliga debattörer. Jag har inet försökt att bevisa eller hävda något alls vad gäller månlandnignarna. När det gäller er debatt-teknik. vilket är vad jag diskuterar, har jag mycket på fötterna. Mitt senaste bevis är ditt ovanstående inlägg.

Din respekt klarar jag mig utan men jag vill återigen föra till protokollet att du inte svarat på min fråga. Ingen av de två frågor jag ställt till dig idag har fått svar, för den delen.

Om du är här för att diskutera andras debatteknik, så är du ute i fel tråd. Alla har sina sätt att diskutera.

Hur var det med bilden med TVÅ SOLAR nu igen, där Schmitts kamrat står i motsol men får sin skugga att falla mot flaggan och Schmitt? Men det är klart, säkert har några pixlar flyttat sig när någon scannade in bilden och publicerade den på NASA:s officiella sajt. Sicken otur!

/MC

Om det är bilden med gula streck så väntar jag fortfarande på en förklaring från Nord.

[MD650]

Men det är precis det som blir kontentan av det hela om man tänker som du, att NASA:s bilder på nätet är OANVÄNDBARA som bevis, och i.o.m. att vi saknar andra bilder, så finns det inga bevis på att de flög till månen. /MC

Att påstå att avsaknaden av omanipulerade bilder för gemene man på internet är övermaga.
Jag vill påstå att man förvarar inte orignalbilder på internet där kleti och pleti kan komma åt dom.

[Markus Holst]

Jag vill påstå att man förvarar inte orignalbilder på internet där kleti och pleti kan komma åt dom.

Analoga bilder går inte att "förvara" på Internet. de måste på något sätt bearbetas för att ta sig dit.

Precis, alltså finns det inga bevis som bevisar att de flög till månen, och det är dit jag önskat komma hela tiden. Alla verkar vara överens om det, och det blir ett bra avslut för mig i den här tråden.

Det vi konstaterat är att bilderna inte kan användas som bevis. Vilka bevis som verkligen finns vet ingen av oss men att med det som slutsats hävda att de inte finns, går inte.
Ni anklagar NASA för lögn. Det är er sak att bevisa att NASA ljuger. NASA har i sammanhanget ingen bevisbörda.

Och du har fortfarande inte svarat på mina frågor.

[MD650]

Analoga bilder går inte att "förvara" på Internet. de måste på något sätt bearbetas för att ta sig dit.

[.

Helt rätt! Jag tänkte på första digital kopian av orignalet.
Men som du säger.
Det analoga orignialet är ju den enda bilden som vetenskapligt till 100% kan nyttjas för att bevisa sin tes.
Inscannade bilder på internet göre sig icks besvär.

[mythcracker]

Vilken fars egentligen!

/MC

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =106637066

Houston, We Erased The Apollo 11 Tapes

by Nell Greenfieldboyce

July 16, 2009

An exhaustive, three-year search for some tapes that contained the original footage of the Apollo 11 moonwalk has concluded that they were probably destroyed during a period when NASA was erasing old magnetic tapes and reusing them to record satellite data.

"We're all saddened that they're not there. We all wish we had 20-20 hindsight," says Dick Nafzger, a TV specialist at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Maryland, who helped lead the search team.

"I don't think anyone in the NASA organization did anything wrong," Nafzger says. "I think it slipped through the cracks, and nobody's happy about it."

NASA has, however, offered up a consolation prize for the 40th anniversary of the Apollo 11 mission — the agency has taken the best available broadcast television footage and contracted with a digital restoration firm to enhance it, so that the public can see the first moonwalk in more detail than ever before.

But the lost tapes mean that the world will probably never again see the original images beamed back to Earth by the lunar camera that is now resting on the moon's dusty Sea of Tranquility, right where Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin left it.

Lunar Camera Tapes Were Higher Quality

That special lunar camera recorded in an odd format that was incompatible with the format used for broadcast TV. So when the footage was received on Earth back in July of 1969, it had to be converted for the live television broadcast.

The conversion degraded the images, and hundreds of millions of TV viewers saw dark, murky pictures.

Those pictures were still thrilling — after all, it was "Live from the Moon!" and a human was walking on another celestial body for the very first time — but some experts knew that the lunar camera was capable of doing better.

"It was better. We knew it was better," says Stan Lebar, who worked at the Westinghouse Electric Corporation and led the team that designed and built the lunar camera.

He knew that engineers on the ground did preserve the lunar camera's odd-format footage by recording it onto tapes. So a few years ago, Lebar and some colleagues decided to go back and look at those tapes, to see if today's digital technology could use them to produce a higher-quality video.

"The whole thing started with the idea that this is the one piece of television footage that's going to be played for the next 50 or 100 or 300 years," says Lebar. "Those that follow us deserve better than what we had."

The Search

But, as NPR first reported back in 2006, the tapes were missing — no one had any idea where they were stored. That report helped trigger a massive search by NASA.

"We had hundreds and hundreds of leads coming to us during this period," says Lebar. "Every one of them was investigated."

Lebar and others spent hours and hours in a vast government storage facility known as the Washington National Records Center, a place that Lebar compares to the giant warehouse at the end of the movie Raiders of the Lost Ark.

The search team combed through "racks of documents, tapes, all kinds of things from NASA and other agencies," says Nafzger.

The search wasn't limited to that one place — the searchers went everywhere from storage businesses to private homes. They pored over logbooks, memos and all kinds of 40-year-old handwritten records.

"We went through old file cabinets that would have little record cards and give you an idea if a shipment went in with the name Apollo on it, and did it have 'Apollo' or 'tape'?" Nafzger says. Or did it have anything on there that could be a tape? So it went to the point of being able to look at anything Apollo-related or tape-related that wasn't distinctly not a possibility."

An Unsettling Discovery

They returned again and again to that vast government warehouse. But then they discovered something disturbing.

Over the years, NASA had removed massive numbers of magnetic tapes from the shelves. In the early 1980s alone, tens of thousands of boxes were withdrawn.

It turns out that new satellites had gone up and were producing a lot of data that needed to be recorded. "These satellites were suddenly using tapes seven days a week, 24 hours a day," says Lebar.

And the agency was experiencing a critical shortage of magnetic tapes. So NASA started erasing old ones and reusing them.

That's probably what happened to the original footage from the moon that the astronauts captured with their lunar camera, says Lebar. It was stored on telemetry tapes, and old tapes with telemetry data were being recycled.

"So I don't believe that the tapes exist today at all," says Lebar. "It was a hard thing to accept. But there was just an overwhelming amount of evidence that led us to believe that they just don't exist anymore. And you have to accept reality."

Still, Nafzger says, they didn't want to give up completely on their mission. "Our goal was to provide to the world the best possible video of a historic event we could for the future," he says.

Help From Hollywood Experts

Since the raw footage appeared to be gone, the team decided to try to find the best of what was preserved in the converted, broadcast format. They reviewed tapes in Australia and tapes in the CBS News archive, and looked at kinescopes — recordings of television made by filming the picture from a video monitor — at Johnson Space Center that no one had watched in 36 years.

The quality of broadcast TV in 1969 "varied extremely between sources," says Nafzger. Using all of these sources, they pieced together the best possible version of the moonwalk. And then, to make it even better, they turned to the magic of Hollywood.

Lowry Digital of Burbank, Calif., has digitally restored all kinds of old movies, from Disney's Bambi to the Star Wars trilogy. Its founder, John Lowry, actually worked on improving footage from later Apollo missions at the beginning of his career. So he was excited about the opportunity to restore pictures of the Apollo 11 moonwalk.

Lowry says more than a hundred computers processed the images, carefully removing things like random noise and camera shake, without destroying the images' historical legitimacy.

"We've got to be very, very mindful of history," says Lowry. "If you want to go to the extreme, you could take these images and completely re-create them. You could create a three-dimensional model of the lunar lander, and you could make it look beautiful. But I don't think that's the point. I think the point is that Apollo 11 was a very, very special historical event."

A New 'First Step On The Moon'

Recently, at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center, Nafzger sat down at a computer loaded with the restored video, which he'd just received from California the day before. He called up a side by side comparison of the old and new — although he cautioned that the restoration is ongoing and won't be complete until September.

In the old, fuzzy footage of Neil Armstrong coming down the ladder of his LEM spacecraft, "there's nothing but a dark image and possibly a foot," says Nafzger. "If I told you it was a foot, you'd probably say, 'OK, must be a foot.' "

That same scene is much improved in the new version. "You can see the structure of the LEM, you can see his full outline of his body," says Nafzger, who points to a reflection in Armstrong's helmet that couldn't be seen before. "It's still not pristine, it's not clean and detailed, but it's now an astronaut, and it's something no one saw before — this is the first step on the moon."

[mythcracker]

Mera på temat "Lost and Found".

/MC

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/ ... l-missing/

Hawaiian Moon Rocks Found, Most Others Still Missing

By Alexis Madrigal Email Author
January 12, 2010 |
3:04 pm |
Categories: Space



A set of rare moon rocks turned up in a cabinet in the Hawaii governor’s office last Friday, a small but significant victory for the lunar enthusiasts who’d like to know where Apollo’s legacy resides on this planet.

The rocks weren’t technically lost, the Honolulu Advertiser reported, in that they remained within the possession of the state government, but the exact location of the samples was not known until an annual inventory of gifts given to the state was conducted.

The find was good news for Joseph Gutheinz, a Houston moon rock hunter who has dozens of his students at the University of Phoenix working on investigating the whereabouts of moon rocks gifted to countries and states after the Apollo 11 and Apollo 17 moon missions.

“This is great news,” Gutheinz told the Advertiser. “This makes my day.”

That’s because finding an AWOL moon rock is nearly as rare as the moon rocks themselves. Back when the rocks were gifted, they became the property of the gift recipients. As time passed, administrations changed, rocks were lost or stolen or locked in dark basements.

And so many of these rare — but not quite as rare as you might think — moon rocks are now lingering in the purgatory between lost and found. Space historians, archivists and collectors have valiantly attempted to build spreadsheets of the rocks and track them all down, but they remain disturbingly sparse.

Of the 193 rocks distributed after Apollo 11, Robert Pearlman’s CollectSPACE website has only ascertained the locations of 42. The Apollo 17 moon rock situation is not much better with space lovers having pinned down the whereabouts of 61 of the precious rocks.

The moon rock situation finds NASA in the awkward position of losing control of its own legacy. Though the rocks and their presentation are a fascinating moment in the agency’s history, the legions of bureaucrats and politicians who received them do not appear to have quite the same level of interest in space-age history.

One reason to track them down is that they appear to be remarkably valuable. The Hawaii rocks, Gutheinz estimated, could be worth $10 million. Pearlman, though, who specializes in collecting space memorabilia, noted “there are very few examples by which to judge the market.”

In any case, we’re sure the bits of moon aren’t the only pieces of scientific history that have gone missing over the last couple hundred years. We’d love to get a good thread going with other examples of missing memorabilia, evidence, or instruments.

Photo of Moon rock at the Smithsonian (it’s still there): NASA

[Markus Holst]

God natt, pojkar! Tack för en trevlig diskussion!