Celtic Historia

Från de första stapplande stegen tills skrift och civilisationer tog över, vilket är olika länge i olika delar av världen.
Celtmists
Medlem
Inlägg: 16
Blev medlem: 24 feb 2017 17:21
Ort: SW England

Celtic Historia

Inlägg av Celtmists » 24 feb 2017 17:58

Hej

Nu medlem här.... :)

Jag har forskat keltisk historia i många år nu i Västeuropa fram till slutet av den romerska invasionen av Portugal och sudvästra Irlande, och intresserad av att veta om det fanns någon kontakt eller inte mellan dem och människorna i Sverige och Norge under denna period.

Tack för ingen hjalp....

koroshiya
Medlem
Inlägg: 1569
Blev medlem: 03 feb 2004 06:51
Ort: Göteborg

Re: Celtic Historia

Inlägg av koroshiya » 25 feb 2017 22:33

Välkommen!

Kontakter mellan Västeuropa och Sverige har funnits sedan de allra första tider. Av och till kan man läsa om det keltiska Västergötland, även om det mest bara är några rader i böcker.

Ett exempel från de äldsta tider är våra megalitgravar. Dessa var förstås inte keltiska, men verkar vara del av ett kulturuttryck som spridits från sydväst.

Testa att googla på Västergötland och kelter, eller kelterna. Från järnåldern finns det massa tecken på kulturutbyten. Det handlar om både konst och bruksföremål.

Celtmists
Medlem
Inlägg: 16
Blev medlem: 24 feb 2017 17:21
Ort: SW England

Re: Celtic Historia

Inlägg av Celtmists » 26 feb 2017 18:27

Thanks for your reply and apologies for replying in English as it would be difficult to get some of the ideas and concepts in Swedish across….

Yes I'd already done quite a lot of research on the Net and Google previously as being in the University world anyway, I like to relax when I can with my long-term favourite research subject which is Celtic history.

My overall research goal is to try and discover as the Romans were finally closing in on the remaining Celtic forces on the west coast of Portugal as well as in the far south west of Ireland, if some of them could have possibly escaped either to the Azores or Denmark, Sweden and Norway ? Because as it's a well-known fact that the Celts never left any written evidence of their ways of life, nearly all the information that we have today only comes from Roman sources such as Caesar and many other notable Roman scribes.

My personal theory, when faced with almost certain defeat and the impossible options of either being killed in battle or taken as captives and then murdered later as the Romans were known to be very ruthless, is that many of them whilst there was still time might have chosen to take their chances and sail off to anywhere, even though they most probably had no idea what lay ahead.

So to begin with Portugal first, then Devon in the UK where I live and finally south-west Ireland, Denmark Sweden and Norway.

I've always felt it a strong possibility that the last of the European Celts could well have made their last final major stand in Europe in Lisbon, soon after the death of their highly successful leader Viriatus who was finally murdered by Celtic traitors in the pay of the Romans in 139 BC. Only to be murdered themselves immediately afterwards as the Romans refused to pay traitors !

On the other hand it's possible that I think some of the Celts might have known of the existence of the Azores because only last year, two Portuguese archaeologists fascinatingly revealed they had found rock art on the island of Terceira, as shown in the link below, which they believe predates the arrival of the Portuguese by many thousands of years.

http://portuguese-american-journal.com/ ... on-azores/

Of course this still doesn't prove that the Celts knew about the Azores....

However and as you must well know already, there is the interesting precedent in 1947 when the Norwegian explorer Thor Heyerdahl and five companions built a log raft called Kon-Tiki, and using prevailing winds and currents only left South America covering over 4,300 miles across the Pacific Ocean before finally being wrecked on a reef in the Polynesian islands.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kon-Tiki_expedition

I think it's important to note at this particular point that because very little major international archaeological work has been undertaken in the Azores Islands so far, exciting new discoveries also predating the arrival of the Portuguese by many thousands of years are now starting to be uncovered every year. I'm also liaising with the local museum in Terceira who have been very helpful.

http://museu-angra.azores.gov.pt/edificios-nucleos.html

One other interesting point which I think should be mentioned regarding Portugal and north-west Spain is the huge number of amazing Iron Age circular earthworks called Castros along the coast of Galicia and facing directly towards the Azores….

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castros_(Spain)

http://www.spainisculture.com/en/monume ... tecla.html

http://www.spainisculture.com/en/propue ... licia.html

When time permitted I've spent the last seven or eight years or so here in North Devon where I live as a volunteer with the Exmoor National Park and liaising with the Devon County Archaeologist now and again. Understandably there is very little major Celtic evidence left around here now apart from the usual place names, though there is the amazing North Molton Necklace/Tutankhamun find in the first link below as well as two other interesting links, and how I first became interested in the whole subject of the Celts and Celtic history in the first place.

http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=23857

http://www.johnhmoore.co.uk/hele/roman.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumnonia

Finally and bringing things up to today I’m now trying to discover what the Roman’s possible objectives and the Celts’ reactions were once the Romans had landed in Ireland from England and Wales. Whether the final confrontation might have been the same as that facing the last Celtic tribes in Portugal finding themselves cornered in the far SW of Ireland and facing the same threat of being killed in battle, survival or the urgent need to escape, might have chosen to sail to either Denmark, Sweden or Norway.

I'd done quite a bit of research into this option and so far have found a number of references to the Iron Age and the Celts with three particularly interesting Nordic ones listed below, though I'm sure there must be more somewhere.

Firstly a Swedish website regarding an Iron Age Celtic centre in Blekinge, secondly an important Celtic find in Norway the Kolstø grave near Avaldsnes, finally the marvellous Celtic Gundestrup cauldron from Denmark.

1. http://sciencenordic.com/treasure-trove ... n-age-town
2. http://avaldsnes.info/en/historie/kelti ... 00-f-kr-0/
3. http://natmus.dk/historisk-viden/danmar ... igerplade/

Conclusion

Finally and to sum up I've always found it difficult given the warlike nature of the Celts that they would all have simply surrendered in Lisbon or in the South West of Ireland, as they knew the Romans would never give up after their many defeats at the hands of their brilliant leader Viriatus until they were all dead.

A lot of them would no doubt have chosen to die gloriously in battle and some risking surrender. But I think that with the sea behind their backs in both countries together with some knowledge of seafaring, coupled with the recent discoveries of rock art on the island of Terceira in the Azores as well as knowing that there were the lands of Norway, Sweden and Denmark within a few days sailing distance, I've always felt it doesn't make sense to simply ignore the opportunity for the few remaining Celts left and presumably their families to not try to survive somehow.

Be very interested to hear any thoughts and suggestions as to what might have happened in the Nordic countries, especially if anyone is into satellite archaeology....

Thanks :)

Petter A
Medlem
Inlägg: 23
Blev medlem: 15 jan 2015 18:10
Ort: Frankfurt

Re: Celtic Historia

Inlägg av Petter A » 08 jun 2018 19:01

Celtmists skrev:But I think that with the sea behind their backs in both countries together with some knowledge of seafaring, coupled with the recent discoveries of rock art on the island of Terceira in the Azores as well as knowing that there were the lands of Norway, Sweden and Denmark within a few days sailing distance, I've always felt it doesn't make sense to simply ignore the opportunity for the few remaining Celts left and presumably their families to not try to survive somehow.
Jag håller inte riktigt med antagandena bakom det här påståendet. För det första finns ju nog Europas keltiska befolkning kvar - den var enormt vidsträckt, från Irland till Anatolien. Några få talar dessutom ännu de keltiska språken, även om de flesta keltiska språk har försvunnit, vilket är en helt naturlig process. Iriska och skotsk gäliska trängdes undan först nyligen i historien, utan själva människorna flyttade någonstans. Romanska språk kom att dominera genom romarriket, men befolkningen var ju fortfarande densamma. Och vad är skillnaden mellan en kelt och german rent genetiskt, till exempel? Om germanerna härstammar från Danmark eller Södra Sverige, kan ju endast de som bor där räknas som "riktiga" germaner - germanerna på kontinenten har antagligen bott sida vid sida med och assimilerat ett stort antal kelter, så att de idag inte kan skiljas från varandra. Om "germaner" ersatte "kelter" i England blir ju därmed bara en språklig fråga.

Säkert reste kelter till Skandinavien och andra delar av Europa, med tanke på att de redan befolkade stora delar av Europa. Men deras nederlag mot romarna eller germanerna har knappast något med saken att göra. Politiken ändrade bara språkförhållandena till kelternas nackdel.

liljen
Medlem
Inlägg: 451
Blev medlem: 10 aug 2007 16:44
Ort: småland

Re: Celtic Historia

Inlägg av liljen » 25 aug 2018 09:26

Om man utgår ifrån premissen som verkar vara en kärntes här att kelterna skulle ha känt sig så undanträngda och hotade både existensiellt och kulturellt att de var beredda att utvandra till nya marker dyker för mig frågan upp om när Shetlandsöarna, Orkenyöarna, Färöarna och framförallt Island bosattes för första gången?
Kan kelter från framförallt Irland ha sökt sig dit?
Island ska ju ha varit bebott av enstaka irländska eremitmunkar innan vikingar kom dit har jag hört talas om, men om man tänker sig att en keltisk bosättning etablerades där betydligt tidigare så kan denna ha dukat under t.ex. 500-talet som hade ett väldigt hårt och klimat åtminstone i Sverige. Finns det något som helst stöd för en sådan hypotes?